ESF 2004 in London, first IRC meeting, 18 Dec 204

present: nizar, adnane, barbygere, javi, oscar, toni

(note: when there is no name in brackets in the front of the text, that's myself, toni - because i logged the chat)

<adnane> let's begin
<oscar> ok with me too. yes lets begin
<barbygere> nizar and mohamed will arrive soon
<javi> so we need some form of agenda 
<javi> toni can you open a wiki page in one of your servers? for the ppl who arrive late?
<adnane> just to synchronize, what are here for
<adnane> why we are here ?
<javi> i think in london we need to get a better idea of what has been done before
* toni will post agenda and summary to a wiki page, provided that you come up with something that can be cut&paste
<adnane> Ok 
<adnane> in paris we worked on :
<adnane> 1- an accreditation system
<adnane> 2- a payement system (accreditation + seminars)
<adnane> 3- a hosting system (people offert accomodations, other ask for accomodation => between the software and the
+volonteers
<adnane> 4- a web site of course + agenda 
<adnane> 5- for translation system based on computer will be used in mumbai 
<adnane> 6- list server of course
<javi> oops adnane has lost connection
<adnane> i'm here again
<javi> we wait for you to complete list?
<barbygere> mohamed and nizar just arrived
<adnane> that's all for me, laurent may complete
<barbygere> list of ppl or list of stuffs
<adnane> ppl ?
<javi> i think we can complete list of things and then go to people
<barbygere> well, I don't see many other developments made
<javi> john is here
<nizar> hi all
<nizar> sorry for beeing late
<adnane> so I thing that's all for things
<barbygere> I have to leave you for 5 minutes
<adnane> me too
<barbygere> the important thing to notice is that everything was made volunteerly
<oscar> In that case, I think the first thing to know is how we can start to work on these from the uk and open up the
+process to other volunteers
<adnane> not only uk, but also others from italy especially
<oscar> yes, from all over europe
> http://www.open-organizations.org/view/Socialtools/EsfIrcMeeting18Dec (notes on this chat, anyone can register at
+that twiki and edit)
<adnane> but, in terms of it's important that you create a working group in London
<adnane> it's important that you create a working group in 
<adnane> London
<javi> yes, hopefully in the practicalities meeting later on 
<adnane> in order to make the junction with the work done, and to do 
<adnane> and with the english and the other
<javi> i have some questions
<adnane> yes
<jribi> hello
<javi> hello
<javi> for example, how long before the esf, did you start work?
> as soon as possible. it's a gigantic effort.
<javi> how much of the existing tools can be recycled?
<nizar> we will be free to work with you at the end of january
<nizar> cause now we are busy with the WSF
<barbygere> all of them can be recycled 
<barbygere> improved
<barbygere> adapted
<adnane> I have to leave you now
<javi> ok, will you be back before half hour?
<adnane> unfortunatly no
<javi> well, take care then and talk to you soon
<adnane> Ok Javier
<javi> barby and others from paris, are you staying for a while?
<nizar> yes
<javi> can we keep asking?
<nizar> sure
<javi> how many people were working on the different elements?
<nizar> we are 4, Laurent, adnane , jribi and me
<javi> only 4 ppl?
<nizar> 4 motivated ppl
<javi> :)
<javi> so you were all working full-time?
<nizar> we made all the tools wich was listedby adnane in one month
<nizar> we were all working  double full-time
<nizar>  :)
> is there a single place where those tools are explained in short, in english?
<nizar> unfortunatly no
<nizar> we will work for thsi
> it would be great if you could do that. just a short list, with short description of two things: functionality that
+it offers and technical requirements. even a single page on all of them together would give some idea.
<javi> another question
<javi> how were you organised within the esf? were all communications in a group with subdivisions? were you directly
+responsible to the asembly?
<barbygere> I'm back
<barbygere> I can make a short depiction of the tools 
<barbygere> and about organization
<javi> cool
<barbygere> there was not any formal internet group
<barbygere> internet was part of a supposedly existing communication group
<barbygere> that was created in october in france
<barbygere> but 2 permanent employee, julie and I started working full time in april
<barbygere> but it was a not a smart move not to create a communication group before
<barbygere> the organization and program group, main group in needs of tools
<barbygere> never could precisely describe their needs before september, even october
<barbygere> there was no transversality and no gateway between thoses groups and internet persons
<barbygere> in the beginning website was considered only as a "merchant site"
<barbygere> with inscription, programs, housing...
<barbygere> bad mode again
<barbygere> bad move again sorry
<barbygere> the website never had a great traffic before october
<barbygere> because there was nothing on it or nearly nothing
<barbygere> internal information was there
<barbygere> but nothing or so few toward the outside
<barbygere> no technical guy was in the secretariat of organization or in the organization group making the link
<barbygere> between decision and application on the website or on tools which are the main entrance to the esf for
+everyone
<barbygere> connected, should I add
<barbygere> decisions of what was or not on the site was maily Julie and I decision
<barbygere> very democratic
<barbygere> but we tried our best to respect the process
<barbygere> I really think that the best way for the ESF website to start is 
<barbygere> 1 - a project ready in the second week of january
<barbygere> 2 - using the wsf as a springboard by linking to the wsf debates and so start a conitnuity between the
+process
<barbygere> wsf and esf one
<barbygere> 3 - getting a hand on the tools and be present as the internet and data process group in all the groups 
<barbygere> SPIP was the site editing tool
<barbygere> any news about the GLA supposed to be coordinator for the website ?
<barbygere> They did not contact us... and that's a good thingn except if they start working on a project
<oscar> not at the moment. everything to do with the gla has gone very silent around now. we do have a meeting on
+practicalities here in 1/2 hour so maybe someone will turn up
<oscar> i don't think software is there priority to be honest
<barbygere> ok
<javi> thanks for the explanation
<barbygere> how do you want us to help now ?
<javi> cheers toni
<oscar> as for taking this forward in the esf process (the boring meetings side of things) it sounds like we could do
+with three things perhaps
<javi> i think the text description of tools would be invaluable
<oscar> 1 - establish a working group in london, mainly as a way to co-ordinate with the other parts of the
+organisation (practicalities, programme etc)
<oscar> 2- open up a process for european collaboration on software and internet tools - maybe this could be done with
+an online meeting, and it could also benefit from an explanation of the existing tools in a few languages?
<oscar> 3 - we could also perhaps meet up in mumbia to link in with the wsf
<oscar> mumbai
<barbygere> you need also to get a hand on the fse-esf mailing lists and site administration
<barbygere> if someone of you can use interfaces in french, no problem
<barbygere> I can put also someone of you as receiver of webmaster@fse-esf.org
> barbygere: is there a web archive of those lists?
<barbygere> yes
<javi> i think we should compile a list of tasks like these and take it to the group
<oscar> which group?
> can you give us a link to the web archive? i don't mean to be a pain, i just find that website hard to navigate and
+to find things.
<barbygere> it's painful reality
<barbygere> ;)
<javi> question:
<barbygere> prepare yourself for a journey into french
<barbygere> https://www.ras.eu.org/admin/listonneurs/wlist.html
<barbygere> it's the mailing list management interface
<barbygere> not that easy to use either
(login/pass removed for securuty reasons)
<javi> toni, do you want to log in first?
<javi> i assume we cannot do it at the same time
> socialtools lists have interfaces in many languages, including frech&english, if that helps. software is called Sympa
+(written by french guys).
> yeah, i'll try.
<barbygere> I also have to let you know how to use that one - by mail
<barbygere> http://www.netaktiv.com/phpmyadmin/index.php
<barbygere> is the access to the database
(login/pass removed for securuty reasons)
> easy of use of software, and its access to many, not just few tech people, is essential. a tool that can not offer
+that is not good enough. that's the criteria that's, i think, most useful, espcialy for politicaly sensitive events.
> in a way, i think that mobilise.org.uk proved that in london. no one could claim that certain political
+group/collecive/org has a monopoly on such tool.
<barbygere> that's the main idea about the international network working on tools
<barbygere> no monopoly
<barbygere> problem with existing tools is the time taken to develop them
<barbygere> no time could be spent on "interfaces" and "non technical" use
<javi> oscar and I are going to have to go to the meeting 
> yes, but if the tools is hard to use, and access isn't open enough, it doesn't matter how international the group is,
+because the entrance requirements (having access, having knowledge) is what's bigger obstacle.
<javi> a question about organisation before we go
> barbygere: thanks a lot for the report though. good to hear it first hand.
<javi> how did babel and the facilitation worked in relation to other communications?
<oscar> i think that issue of the interface comes under recycle...adapt...improve... 
<barbygere> babels was really working on his won
<barbygere> own
<barbygere> we participated in first organization groups
<barbygere> and proposed to be the only interpretation 'resource'
<oscar> i also 
<oscar> oops
<barbygere> we proposed a schedule regarding the possible format of the forum
<barbygere> 4 sites - 55  simulteanous debates - 5 languages in each - 
<barbygere> we evaluated a budget
<barbygere> for interpreters transportation, accomodation, our own organization needs (connection, papers, envelops,
+mobiles during the ESF...)
<barbygere> budget was presented to the european assembly within the whole esf budget
<barbygere> and never was discussed so much
<barbygere> then we created our own groups (coordination, interpreters selection, transport...)
<barbygere> and they worked independantly from the esf groups
<barbygere> but keeping in touch with them
<barbygere> not enough work with esf groups was done but we had our own very specific problems to manage
<barbygere> we can also send you a draft of our organization method
<oscar> ok that's useful to know. we got to go now to this practicalities meeting but need to work out quickly how to
+carry this process on...
<oscar> for a london working group, we can suggest that now
<barbygere> who goes to mumbai and when ?
<oscar> but to incorporate others from around europe (including italians!) and mumbai... do you want to suggest?
<barbygere> I can gather a number of emails of people already interested and send them to you so you drive it
<oscar> i'm in mumbai from 15 january to 29
<barbygere> ok - adnane and nizar will be there until the 15th
<barbygere> adnane goes on the 15th
<barbygere> mohamed and I take off on the 3rd
<barbygere> it's gonna be hard for us during the 15 days left before we go
> oscar/javi: do you plan on opening a mail list and at what server? i.e. how does one keep one with discussions?
<oscar> we can use existing mailing lists but there's not one for communications (is there?) so we can set up a new one
<oscar> on the fse-esf server ideally
<barbygere> there is one existing that you can use - called webproject@fse-esf.org
<oscar> ok then, let's use that
<barbygere> it was a working list - I can delete people currently on it
<barbygere> and you can inscribe whoever
<barbygere> toni, you want to know how the interface goes ?
<oscar> ok by me. toni?
> i would prefer riseup.net or socialtools.net because of easy to use multi/lingual interfaces
> why does everything needs to be on the same domain?
<oscar> i'm still trying to sort out what i'm up to in mumbai so might be better to email about that rather than sort
+it now
> ESF isn't an organization, right?
<barbygere> no it's not
> so, tools can be spread in different places, i hope so.
<barbygere> yes they can
<oscar> either is fine by me... I gotta go so I'll let you decide!
<barbygere> that's one of the crucial point
> by oscar
<barbygere> not everything in the same place
<barbygere> see you oscar
<barbygere> but a coherence between them
> barbygere: hehe, that's asking too much :)
<barbygere> I know, but it's a long process... 
*** Signoff: oscar (Quit: Leaving)
<barbygere> and if we don't start now, greek will be in the same old shit starting wortking on next forum
> yes, yes, but Sympa is brilliant software, written by french, that is much easier to use, multilingual and available
+at at leat two places. why not to use it?
<barbygere> good idea - it's up to you now ;) - and I will ask the RAS if they can install it
<barbygere> but you can also start from now using new lists - we can redirect good old lists to new ones...
<barbygere> or recreate them - with the existing mail adresses
> see http://lists.mobilise.org.uk/wws/arc/esf-uk-info as an example
<barbygere> definitely a good idea
> that's hosted by socialtools. so we could set up lists2004.fse-esf.org
> is we coordinate that you setup subdomain
> since we can set up lists for any domain individualy
> if we coordinate, i ment.
<barbygere> ok - there is just one thing needing be done before
<barbygere> domain name server is not at the RAS right now
<barbygere> Netaktiv has it
<barbygere> so first RAS has to get it back and then will be able to create subdomain
<barbygere> long explanation
<barbygere> long story
> ok. let's continue this on email. we could use socialtools-help@lists.socialtools.net while we discuss it
> if that's ok with you. i really have to go now.
<barbygere> ok - have to go too - last thing 
<barbygere> I will send you list of mailing list (domainfse-esf) and password to be able to retrieve lists of people
+enscbribed on them